I'm in....I'll go ahead and say fuck it, too.

It's funny because I just got yelled at by a coworker last week. I also, said oriental. I thought it was ok to say that. I wasn't being mean. Honest. When did they change the rules on me?

I've been supporting this movement for quite awhile now, and I'm quite excited that it's finally a movement. Prophetic support meant I had to put up with a whole lot of name calling and some Asian rugs.

I say fuck it too. We need a button or a sticker or something though.

The problem I have with political correctness isn't the political correctness itself. If you tell me, "Actually, I'd prefer to be termed 'Asian' rather than 'Oriental,'" I'll apologize and call you a chink. Woops! I mean I'll apologize and call you Asian. It's no skin off my ass and if it makes you feel better . . . .

You prefer African-American to black? You prefer Hispanic to Chicano or Latino? Okey-dokey. I'll even label you a "person of color" if that's what it takes to soothe your ruffled feathers. Using terms people prefer is just being mannerly.

No, the only problem I have with political correctness is the awful backlash it's caused, so that now you have ignorant rednecks thinking it's a real badge of courage to let loose with the n-word and other terms of hate speech. I don't want any laws against hate speech--I like being able to know who the fuckwits are, so by all means, let 'em get busy with the hateration--but that doesn't mean I'm overjoyed to hear it, if you know what I'm saying.

I know you're not in that bunch, but more than a few folks are, and someone needs to tell them, "Son, I'm afraid it turns out you're actually not an irrepressible maverick for busting out with '[insert slur here]' all the time. You're just an asshole."

The real problem is if I'm not PC in the workplace I'll get fired. No questions. Just straight out the door. At first I was p!ssed about it, but Ilyka's right. Unfortunately there's a lot of people out there who use various words deliberately to degrade and it has a powerful effect. It's a case where the minority such as yourself end up suffering for a greater good.

In my workplace what would have previously passed as legitimate comment was sexist or racist, but considered part of the rough and tumble. Now it's gone and you know what, we're all still able to converse and live our lives.

Let me clarify a bit. I in no way support the use of derogatory terms, racial epithets, etc. Also, like Ilyka, I'm more than happy to use a particular spun term to make an individual comfortable and happy. That's not what Political Correctness is about though.

Political Correctness: conformity to a belief that language and practices which could offend political sensibilities should be eliminated

The "could offend" is the key there. It does not matter if a term offends or not. If there's the possibility that it could offend then it must not be used. That is ridiculous.

Exactly. It's the Chicken Little of linguistic terms: "what if someone is offended" *run scurrying in circles* How codependent.

I say, *if* someone is offended, let them speak. The rest of us [with manners] will adjust --when talking to that individual. Other individuals might not agree, even though they're a member of the same "group."

It's this group-think implication that *all* blacks/Asians/Polish/whatevers think alike that gets me. Wasn't that one of the original defining characteristics of racism -- assuming all people of a particular group are "all alike -- can't tell 'em apart..."

Claire says it VERY well. TWO problems have emerged:
1) self-established 'elite' have determined to correct everyone else who are not as aware and concerned about what is offensive. This has created an environment of people LOOKING for offensive expressions / language / omissions / etc.
2) As a result, we have DISENGAGED from honest interaction (risky to ask a ____ person what their experience as a ____ has been. [the hair on my neck tingles as I write THIS for fear I have offended someone out there...even though THEY would have had to fill-in the blanks to take said offense!]). I am comfortably PC - trained to add my hum to the collective hum - never risking saying anything that might offend and so never saying anything at all.

I always say "Ornamental" instead. I also refuse to use "X-American" in any context. For example, you are either Chinese or American, not Chinese-American. How many self-described "African-Americans" have ever even set foot on the African continent? They are as much African as I am European.

There is another problem with PC besides what you call people* (see below on that) - certain moral judgements are included.

For example, to say that you believe homosexuality is wrong is non-PC. It doesn't matter how you treat people, and it doesn't matter if your statement was truthful or not (what you BELIEVE). All that matters is that it might offend people... other than Christians, of course. Christians are to be offended whenever possible (or at least are considered only after everyone else).

Don't believe me? Try saying you are muslim and that you believe homosexuality is wrong. Then try saying you are Christian and that you believe homosexuality is wrong. You see, you can't offend people... well, unless they're a group that it's OK to offend.

* as to what to call people, I'm strongly in the "whatever" camp, too. Yes, x-American is stupid, but, hey, I don't care what you want me to call you. What I DO care about is when I call you WHAT YOU TOLD ME to call you, and then you get offended, because you've changed you mind in the last five minutes, and that old moniker is totally offensive now. And that is someohow MY fault?!?

THIS IS SO FUNNY. Just this morning I was telling my girlfriend the same fucking thing!!! The conversation started with the use of Oriental and how Asian, I think, encompasses all of...shit, I'm not going to reiterate everything you just said, but THANK YOU FOR PUTTING IT DOWN SOMEWHERE WHERE OTHERS CAN BE EDUCATED IN HOW "PC" IS BULLSHIT!!!!!

Also... I don't know the races of anyone else on this forum, and it may just be my perception, but has anyone noticed that "Politically Correctness" is a white thing? I have friends of all races, American and foreign, so I'm not trying to put out that I feel any...prejudice, but no one but white people, as far as I've seen, has ever gotten shit for anything not "PC", except politicians, corporate whatevers, musicians, etc. I don't know, maybe it's just me. Anyone, let me know of any other cases so I may be educated.

It has always been offensive to people of Asian descent to be called Oriental, Oriental applies to items (that's why you would still call a rug made in the Orient an Oriental rug) not people. It is fine to be a "dash American" if you have only one ancestral heritage, everyone is entitled to hold onto their ancestral background.

I agree, the term "oriental" is perfectly fine. It means "from the orient," and is not derogatory. Carrie is wrong - it does not only refer to things. It's an English word, and refers to both people AND things from the orient.

I had an interesting exchange with the Asian American Network for Cancer Awareness, Research and Training (AANCART) about their use of the term "Asian" instead of oriental, which is what they mean to say, since they exclude Russia and other areas of Asia. Here it is, in chronological order:

From: netgk@hotmail.com
To: aancart@ucdavis.edu
Subject: Definition of "Asian"
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 14:21:29 -0400

Dear AANCART:

Since the Asian continent includes Russia and other countries with predominantly non-oriental populations, why do you even bother using the word "Asian" in your name? Why not use "Oriental"? It's much more specific. "Asian" includes people with all kinds of skin, hair (including blond), eyes (including blue), cultures, foods, etc. Therefore it is a completely useless term for describing a person or a culture.

Sincerely,

Jeff
========
From: Moon Chen
To: netgk@hotmail.com
Subject: Re: Definition of "Asian"
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 13:01:22 -0700

Dear Jeff:

"Oriental" is an older term that has now been equated as a type of rug and many Asians do not like to be stepped on. "Asian" is the adjective for the continent that we are from. Thank you for your interest.

Moon Chen
============
From: netgk@hotmail.com
To: moon.chen@ucdmc.ucdavis.edu
cc:
Subject: Re: Definition of "Asian"
10/25/2004 05:58 PM

Hello Moon. Thank you for responding. I would like to follow up.

Who has equated "Oriental" as only a type of rug? I don't believe that this has ever actually happened. This claim is apparently the invention of an insult where none exists. "Oriental" simply means "from the Orient." Sure, rugs come from the Orient. So do people. What's so horrible about referring to both as "oriental'? Rugs from Mexico are called Mexican rugs.

People from Mexico are called Mexican people. But do you hear Mexicans complaining that people confuse them with rugs? In fact, rugs are made in countries and continents all over the world. Nobody confuses people from those geographic locations with the rugs that come from those areas. Have you ever honestly found yourself being confused with a rug?

You did not address my comment about the problem with using the term "Asian." I reiterate: "Asian" refers to something or someone from Asia, as you say. Other than that, it is useless in describing people or cultures, because it includes people with blond hair and blue eyes that are "round," as well as people with black hair and brown eyes that are almond-shaped, and people with every other combination of traits. It also applies to a vast number of different cultures. Even the term "oriental" refers to many different cultures and a few different physical looks, but it is far less general than the term "Asian." I've heard police, searching for a suspect, describe him as "Asian." That doesn't narrow it down much, does it?

Given that "oriental" is the logical word to use to describe people from the orient, a more likely explanation of why some orientals have induced themselves to whine about it is just that they wish to make innocent people feel guilty simply for using language the way it should be used - to describe people and things accurately.

I have noticed another absurdity resulting from the substitution of "Asian" for "Oriental." People are now referring to "Asian food." Of course, they mean oriental food, but they now think the two are synonymous. I'm sure the term "Asian rugs" isn't far away, and you'll once again have to make clear to people the world over that you are not a rug.

I would be interested in your responses to the questions I raised above.

Best regards,

Jeff
==========
From: Moon Chen
To: netgk@hotmail.com
Subject: Re: Definition of "Asian"
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 22:33:26 -0700

Jeff:

I think the bottom line is self-designation.

Moon
=============
Moon,

Self-designation for what reason? To avoid being confused with a rug?? Why should anyone go along with vocabularistic contortions for such a silly reason?

I think the bottom line is communication. If your self-designation is the generic "Asian," then there is a lot of information that you're not communicating. You may as well describe yourself as "human."

If I need to describe someone who has oriental features, the word to use is oriental. And face it, there are times when one needs to describe a person's appearance, as with the police incident that I mentioned. "Asian" only describes their continent of origin. Do you have a better term for describing the oriental appearance than "oriental"? If so, I would be happy to consider using that instead. "Asian" simply doesn't work.

Jeff

I have found several websites now that use the term "Asian" for rugs. It seems that the word "oriental" has become stigmatized, and no one really knows why, so they think it's safer to say "Asian."

Sorry, forgot to list the websites mentioned above that use the term "Asian rugs." Here are some:

http://www.asianrugswa.com/
http://everyschool.org/u/logan/culturalmath/carpet.html
http://go.hrw.com/ndNSAPI.nd/gohrw_rls1/pKeywordResults?MG1%20Quilts
http://web.jccc.net/interiordesign/associate.htm (a school of interior design that teaches a course on "Asian Rugs."

And here are some that deal with "Asian food," which is another attempt to be polically correct without knowing why:

http://www.asiafood.org/
http://www.asiarecipe.com/
http://www.afic.org/

Jeff,
I am not wrong, Asian people all hate to be called Oriental.You need to stop getting bent of shape about definitions and literal meanings. The point here is that Asian people do not like
to be called Orientals, that's all you need to
know. Stop wasting your time looking up all of this information and listen to what Asian people are saying.

Sure, Carrie. "ALL" Asian people hate being called Oriental? That's simply untrue, just like your other statements. I married an Oriental, you moron. And you still haven't given any good reason why anyone from the Orient should object to being described as someone from the Orient. Would you please explain how this makes any sense? Of course, you can't. You've simply decided to whine about it because you like whining.

On the other hand, some Asians are caucasian. They must hate the perversion of the word "Asian" to mean "Oriental," which is what Carrie would like us all to do.

The fact is, there are times when we need to describe what someone looks like. "Oriental" means, generally, straight black hair, almond-shaped eyes, and teeth with a shovel-shaped cross-section. If people like Carrie lose their delicate equilibrium when "Oriental" is used to describe people, they should suggest something else instead of "Asian," which is already taken! It has a meaning very different from "Oriental," as I mentioned in my above postings.

Carrie, if you want to complain about something, then grow up and find something that's worth complaining about. The word "Oriental" isn't one of them.

Do me a favor and stop commenting, the number of comments you have left shows us who needs to grow up.

Unfortunately, Jeff has angered me enough with his ignorance that I finally have to explain why I don't want to be called Oriental.
The term reflects European and American colonialistic attitudes of the past and present. A term used to exotify people and products i.e. teas/women/attitudes/customs/foods/etc. Nonone uses the term "occidental" to describe white people. Additionally, oriental is a term which desribes location in respect to Europe(Engand specifically)

Carrie, get to a phone and call the police immediately. Let them know that someone has spiked your grain alcohol with LSD and you're freaking out on a bad trip, having a serious break with reality.

To answer your points:

1) "...reflects European and American colonialistic attitudes..." Attitudes? Saying that someone is from the Orient, the far east, reflects an attitude? So then saying that John Wayne lived out West is some kind of insult too?

2) "A term used to exotify people and products..." Exotify? There's no need to "exotify," because the fact is that they're already exotic, which simply means they (or their roots) are from somewhere else! If you really believe your own bullcrap, then you won't use the word "European," because it "exotifies" people from Europe. Well face it - everyone's not from your neighborhood. Some people are from exotic locations, places strange to us occidentals.

3) "Oriental is a term which describes location in respect to Europe..." So what? In Asia, they refer to us as the West. And they refer to us as "Westerners." Big deal!!! Who cares? People out West (oops! I did it again!) would call me an Easterner. OUCH, THAT HURTS!!! Bottom line: you're just making up things to whine about, and you’re trying to take the rest of the world with you into your hypochondriatic neurosis.

By the way, if you want to call me "occidental," be my guest! Of course, you'll have the same problem with vagueness that you have with "Asian," because "occidentals" come in all colors, hair types, eye types, etc. Therefore, the term is as useless as "Asian." The purpose of using the word "Oriental" is to describe a person's appearance or background. "Asian" doesn't do this, and therefore it is not a substitute. As I said, if you want everyone to bow to your imaginary pain and stop using the word "oriental," you must provide a substitute that has the same meaning. Do you have one? No, you don't. Get it through your politically correct skull: "Asian" doesn't work, because - say it with me - all Asians are not orientals. If nothing else, I would at least like you to address that one point.

Looks like Carrie has no answer to my question. On behalf of Carrie, I would like to interpret her silence for the group. Her silence means, "Wow, was I ever wrong. It turns out that 'oriental' isn't a dirty word after all! I wish I could take back all the times I've 'corrected' people about why they shouldn't refer to orientals as orientals. I see now that the word 'Asian' is not a good substitute for 'oriental,' and here I was, all this time, ordering people to use it. I'm so ashamed of jumping on the P.C. bandwagon without thinking. Thank you, Jeff, for making me into a more critical thinker! Iwish there were some way to repay you! Can I have your phone number?"

Well, heh, you're making me blush, Carrie. But you're welcome. Sorry I can't give you my phone number, but if I did that every time I imparted wisdom, my phone wouldn't stop ringing!

And now, my job here is done. There is someone else out there in this crazy world that needs me. But dry your tears, O petulant one. I'll be back someday. (Cue sunset.)

Carrie: "There goes one hell of an occidental."

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